First Post Hopefully of Many

Well guys it's finally happened, and I hope we can all agree our WNM Events are going to be better for it.

Months ago we agreed to try playing a Modern modified version of Commander, it opened up a lot of more viable generals, color combinations and opportunities in our Metagame. In my opinion this was a great first step, we came to the conclusion that we didn't want games that always revolved around getting Sol Ring turn 1, or burgeoning and exploration or many other broken cards we've excluded, but I think the time has come to revisit this wide sweeping ban on all legacy cards put together a more comprehensive list to target only the fun ruin-er cards.

Mike and I have come up with the first draft of what we hope will be a banned list we can all agree will allow the maximum amount of magic cards back into our Metagame but without ruining what we've tried creating by switching to Modern in the first place. I think we all know the most devastating perpetrators are those extremely fast early game ramp cards that speed the game up way too much and so those will be the first cards on our list, but I think we can all agree that there are many MANY legacy cards (ei: Explosive Vegetation, Counterspell, ANY of the Legendary Creatures) that won't dominate our Metagame and should be welcomed back. We've literally closed the door on hundreds of potentially fun cards and I hope we can all work together to welcome them back.

This banned list is going to be collaboration of all our input, and every two months we want to make it clear that NO card is off the table for banning. If we as a group are finding that a certain card is dominating our Metagame the way that Primeval Titan used to we can easily discuss adding it to the banned list. I feel like we need to leave multiple game nights feeling this way, and it will have to be heavily debated but in the spirit of keeping our game nights as fun as possible nothing is out of the question.

So please check out the banned list, enjoy the new massive library of cards that we can re-welcome to the Metagame and let's have some fun.

~ Justin

Great idea man, this is exactly what we need, instead of discussing it with only the few who showed up pn any given night.  For all things WNM related, not just bannings.

Im going to get this party started with a few thoughts.  I am not convinced that Temple of the False Gods deserves a ban.  I think its draw back is enough to keep it from being relevant early game, unlike Ancient Tomb.  I would instead compare it to the bounce lands.  While the bounce lands do not really ramp, i feel that a few turns after they are played, after you have played the land that had to bounce, they are a superior land because of the colored mana.

I have never like the Sensei's Top ban.  I understand that the group feels it slows the game down too much and that is not fun, but there are a lot of cards that do that and i do not see any on the list (armageddon to name one).  Do we want this list to also ban cards that reduce the fun of our games?  I would be okay with that.  But if its just broken cards i do not feel Top deserves it.

Speaking of no fun.  Im not even going to get into why i think Sorrin Markov and Time Stretch should get the boot.  I am sure everyone knows how i feel about those haha.

-Jason-

All the cards your talking about are completely valid nominations, but I would argue that we should let the new card pool settle and see what comes out of it before we start making judgements on cards for the sake of a cleaner more "fun" metagame.

I know at the moment Time Stretch had been many people's bane, and it is the main reason why Mystical Tutor was banned (we figured one or the other) but I'm hoping giving back almost everyone's cardpool might tilt power away from blue.

I'm hoping we can play test without making "those sorts" of bans but yeah I also have my eye on Tooth and Nail, but it's a slippery slope and I'm hoping we can start with the mega ramp and see where that gets us.

Temple of the false god and bounce lands don't do the same thing. They are both powerful but profuse different advantages. The bounce lands read "you miss playing a max mana spell this turn, draw a land", where as temple reads " you may play 2 lands this turn if this is your fifth land drop". temple is significantly more powerful then a bounce land. Bounce lands are awesome because drawing it is like drawing 2 lands at a minor cost most of the time (we've all had moments where it's your 6th land and you have a juicy 6 drop you were going to

Slam. temple is a colorless Mox once you have 4 lands in play. In conjunction with even one 2 drop ramp spell it brings turn 6 to turn 4 in a green deck. I agree, it might just be good and not "broken" though. let's take it off for now and keep an eye on it. The real offenders were the single ramp spells that could accelerate you 2 turns on the first turn. As for time stretch, i agree it is incredibly powerful. Justin and i discussed it at length on the original list and decided to give it till the first 2 month review. the thing to consider is that blue lost not a lot, where as other colors lost most of their best cards. Time stretch accelerated to the head of the pack. the other colors getting a huge boost where as blue gets actual nothing (we even left mystical banned for now) might reign it in. As is we'll keep an eye on it

Im ok with trying out the bans on mega ramp, but we need to consider what we ban very carefully. And how much we ban. I mean were no casuals but the list can really add up.

Sorin was banned for a while, then we brought him back and no one really gave a shit because it was usually late enough in the game that someone deserved it.

And Sensei's almost as bad as Sol Ring, goes in any every deck, and has an overpowered effect.

I agree, we will have some serious talks about adding cards to the list it definitely won't be on a whim. And we're not banning cards just because they are powerful, it's hot to be cards that are clearly unfair/dominating out metagame.

Are we supposed to be implementing these changes for this upcoming Wednesday (21st)?

Also is this replacing our Modern EDH?

Yes and yes, I'de say without the super ramp the modern decks will have a much better time against the altere Legacy decks.

I changed my decks last night, I can't wait to see how this all plays out.

The idea is that we won't have separate types if decks, but a metagame where all our commanders and decks can compete fairly. Damia will be much slower with the cuts I made, it's going to he awesome playing Jor Kadeen again.

So we need to change all our decks again. Awesome.

Hardly though, I literally took 6 cards out of Damia and 4 out of Jor Kadeen and I'll honestly bet you that will be enough for the Modern decks to compete with them.

If we do this we can play any deck any table any time and it'll be the last time we make such big changes to the Metagame.

VeganZombie wrote:

So we need to change all our decks again. Awesome.

Tell me about it...

I can't hear you're moaning over the sound of Jor Kadeen smacking both of you around Wednesday.

I'm a little confused by the bans on Thran Dynamo and worn powerstone. How are these considered busted while basalt monolith, dreamstone hedron, guided lotus, and most notably coalition relic are still legal?

Actually I had meant to put Basalt Monolith on the list.

Worn Powerstone = Turn Three cast your next turn is turn
Thran Dynamo = Cast turn 4 next turn is turn 8

Now both these cards are in their own ways better than Coalition Relic and Golded Lotus, namely their faster.

So should we start banning all the artifact ramp? Where do we draw the line?

I would argue that Wizard's has decided for us, Worn and Thran aren't modern legal and Gilded and Relic are. Believe me my Jor Kadeen deck will miss those artifacts but I think Wizards has drawn a nice line in the sand for us.

While I agree about there having to be a line, I find your "modern" argument a little ironic all things considered...

Well where do we draw the line then? With a sculpting steel and thran dynamo a person can have 11 mana turn 5, and that's not even including if they run green. I know the same can happen by turn 6 with Gilded but what do we do? Ban both? Or accept that maybe turn 5 is too soon and maybe there's a reason Thran never got reprinted?

Ummm... Thran dynamo and worn powerstone are better than all those cards you listed. laughably better than all but gilded lotus, really. The goal of the ban list is to keep the format slow like it was in modern. While bringing more power back into the format. basically we're trying to kill "legacy edh" and unify all decks. I think we can all agree that if one guy starts his 1st turn with a sol ring or exploration, and everyone else doesn't; that person is heavily favored to win that game. We're interested in creating balanced games where people still get to cast all their favorite cards, just not on turn 2 when they cost 6 mana.

Now that I'm off the road and safely in Vancouver, I figure I can add a bit more to my earlier thoughts.

Didn't realize that both Thran Dynamo and Worn Powerstone were on the Modern banlist. That is a good reason to exclude them. There is some disproportionate hate out for artifact based ramp that I really don't understand. Every single card on our current in house no go list with the exception of top (thank god) and mystical tutor is a ramping card. The last time I played with you guys was in May/June, so I have to ask, has mad crazy non-green ramp been destroying games?

Also, just as an additional thought to the choice between banning Mystical Tutor or Time Stretch. I would rather see Time Stretch removed. Tutor is the most effective way to go search it up, but the problem isn't with Time Stretch being cast once, it's when someone manages to loop it. One of the more insane and downright unfun thing we can have (even if Mike loves the shit out of it) is someone taking about three or four turns consecutively. I've watched Spelltwine be used to cast a time warp out of an opponents graveyard, and bring back their own Time Stretch for a second go. The choice that has been made almost feels like banning Worldly Tutor while allowing Primeval Titan go on unchecked.

I agree Hudson, and if you read earlier i even say that time stretch is on everyones mind. The reason we ban the ramp is it allows puerile to cast their huge game ending spells way earlier in the game then anyone else. Doing this basically demands an answer on the spot from the table or it's over. One if the ways in magic to deal with a big threat or at least deter it is to match it with your own. Ramp spells, however, can put you so far ahead that no one can play anything substantial enough to interfere. We don't want to kill ramp and we don't want to take away the powerful plays because that's part of the fun. The goal here is to take away the most egregious offenders. Yes, gilded lotus is very powerful in commander, but do we want to just ban all the powerful cards? I don't want to ban cards when they're good but easily answered. At that point we're not even playing the game anymore. One thing i really want the group to start doing is building for the metagame. If a guy there plays tons of artifacts, bring artifact hate. I find that a lot of players here are content to build their deck, then if it loses, complain about the other guys deck rather then tweak their brew to improve the matchup. I mean, that IS magic. If you just build your deck and then don't want to try to interact with me in anyway, why am i even there? Couldn't you just be sitting at home, Goldfishing on the kitchen table? I want to take all bans very seriously and we'll debate them before agreeing. Time stretch is already on top of the list, but i want everyone to honestly think and ask themselves: since playing against time stretch, what have i done to my decks to fight it? if the answer is nothing, then is it really even at the point where we can talk about banning it?

Well I would like to add that it's not so much that no one has tried to come up with an answer for Time Stretch, bu that othe than splashing blue in their decks people have been at a loss for what to do with against it.

Again, that's why we're putting all the old Legacy cards back into the shuffle. When people are running all their colors best cards maybe we can see them fight off Time Stretch.

But Hudson since playing with us we've had quite a few matches where some people are running Legacy and some people Modern and almost every time it's the turn one sol ring, Mox Exploration or burgeoning that wins because no one else is nearly that fast. It became really obvious to us that it may be the main reason we couldn't mix both our decks without Modern decks feeling like they have a huge disadvantage. Now if you want to call it hate on mostly Artifact Ramp i'de say that's accurate, but the medallions (sapphire medallion aka turn all my Counters into counterspell) are just as crazy.

But like we said at the start of this thread, we don't want to just up and ban time stretch without playing it against the hundreds of cards we're re introducing into the metagame, because that is exactly the kind of quick decision "BAN it cause I hate that card" rash decision making we're tryin to avoid. I would argue if wiped Time Stretch out just like that, than Tooth and Nail should get wiped just like that too, if it's one card wins you're trying to avoid. Hell we all hate early Sorin so him too fuck that card right?

It's a slippery slope, every card will be looked at in 2 months once we have a better handle on this new cardpool, and I also love how in the first WEEK of even having a Banlist where we repeated continuously we want to tread lightly because it's a slippery slope we are basically trying to grab crazy carpets are barrel down that slippery slope instead.

I would like to add my two cents... I... DON'T... WANT... A... LEMON... TABLE... I don't want a lemon table! I don't want it! Also, May I suggest a pure simple solution... Ban infinite "I win" combos! Make it the gentleman's league game it was meant to be... Not necessarily ban cards, but instead, combos. I.E: Mike and Trike, things that take the politics out of the game, i mean the game is fun when 20/20 wurms are running around and someone nukes another person for 39 points of damage, then that person gains 60 health... yeah... because, as Justin said, where do you draw the line. I mean sure, ban mystical tutor... but then you also have demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, PERSONAL TUTOR... The list goes on... Make the game more interactive, nothing wrong with generating infinite mana. Infinite mana to put out a 50/50 creature, GOOD, infinite mana to take infinite turns and win, defeating all players, BAD. Make the game a way for all of us to interact with each other... Magic is all about pulling ahead and falling behind, it's the name of the game. However, I've seen people with 2 land in play hold off another person with 8 land in play for 7 turns. They still lost, but that to me sounds fun! Thoughts/ideas?

-Justin 1.5

I didn't have time earlier to elaborate on my previous post, so I'd like to do that now. For those who don't know me, I'm Justin #2. (I used to be Justin #1... lol Burton!) I rarely make it out to EDH night, but that will soon change. At any rate, before I make a few points, I'd like to share something with the players here... A few weeks back, on one of my short changes, I went over to a co-workers place for a few beers. Low and behold I found out that this guy plays Magic cards with his roommate, his roommate's girlfriend and another random site worker. I really didn't know this guy very well, and being somewhat introverted, I found myself basically asking stupid questions and talking about stupid topics... UNTIL I seen one of em setting up to play, well then I never shut up. Anyways, as they all sat down to play, Gerald showed me a shoe box filled with cards and said "feel free to build a deck and play." Well shit, I went through that shoe box, I did! Found some AMAZING cards, I did! So I rummaged together a deck and sat down. Of course, being that is was multi-player, I built a pretty cool salvaging station deck. (Goes infinite when you have 3 pieces of the "MACHINE"... Oh and a creature) at any rate, we all sat down and started to play. Now judging on the cards i seen in this box, I was expecting some INSANE decks... There was a green/black player, and I had passed 2 Tarmogoyfs in this box. So I figured this would be sweet. Sure enough, as I hit my 5th land drop, only 1 other had managed to make all his land drops, while the other 2 were stuck on 2 and 3 land. I had managed to cast a bunch of transmute cards and fabricates and had started assembling my combo. By the time I had drawn my last combo piece, I had noticed the biggest "Threat" on the table was a Craw wurm while second up was noggle bandit with a fireshrieker on it. I felt like a god amongst noobs playing a VERY lame game, but none the less, everyone had smiles on their faces, looking intently at their creations with pure satisfaction. Now here is  the part where I feel like a HUGE douchebag. As I played the last piece of the puzzle, I had asked everyone; "Any response?" All of them looked at me like I like I had 4 heads. One guy pipped up; "Reeespooonse......? To what? What's response?" I said; "Does anyone have a counter spell or a way to destroy any artifacts before this hit's play?" Another said; "Nooo.....? Why? It's an artifact..." I said; "Okay, well I win I guess! play another?" Gerald looked confused, so I explained the combo to the group... Well shit, What happened next was like a Cat in the Hat episode, where I was the Cat and they were all the kids, except not as fun. Picture me, (The Cat) walking into the room, and all the kids yelling; "YAY! IT'S THE CAT IN THE HAT!" Where as I yell back; "Fuck you kids, It's the cat in the hat, I hit your dad with a bat and fucked your mom! What do you think about that?!" Then I eat the gold fish in the bowl and walk off stage. I basically ruined everyone's fun at that point. Gerald was the first to reply after a long pause and said; "Well that's gay... lol! Everyone all at once it seemed revealed their hands and started saying their next plays, how awesome it would have been. Believe it or not, one guy even had a Leviathan in hand, and was like: "Oh man, your so lucky, cause in 5 or 6 more turns you were all dead!" I kinda realized how not fun it was for all of them to see me combo out. Needless to say, I took apart the deck and built a random white weenie deck. It took me back to the days of playing at Burton's/my old place, where Burton played deep dog, Clarke played W/B/U Vindicate/counter/Exalted Angel and I played terminate with grinning demons. Nathan, (AKA Nerd boy AKA Nerd beard) played his Black/Green "Lets all sac creatures" deck, then all mine come back. We had fun, (Well that is of course when Nathan wasn't aloud to play his green/black deck) every game was a new winner, every other game Mike won... (Some things never change) But what I am getting at was HOW the game was played. Mike would win, we'd play again, we'd pick on him, another person would pull ahead, the hate would shift, people went to almost dead to back in the game, to marked target and back down again. Everyone planned ahead 5 turns in advance, prayed for top decks, heart raced when they played a 6/6, hoping no one had the answer, and frowned when it died. I suggest we ban, not individual cards, but card combo's. Tutors can be loads of fun. Hell tutor for a time stretch, play time stretch, hit 2 players with a Blight steel colossus. That's fun. It's not broken, all the cards listed can be answered to by multiple people. And I mean say it's a 4 person table, if say Mike plays all those cards, and does take out 2 people, he could still lose to that 3rd person... maybe he thinks twice about attacking the second time, all three of his opponents could have a devastating play next turn... Who knows? I dunno. Food for thought I guess. I just remember the first time I played a game of magic. It was the most fun EVER! My favorite cards were Killer Bees and the infamous Shivan Dragon. The games lasted long, the battles were intense, and after the smoke settled, I wanted to grab a sliver deck and own everyone... Only to have my dreams crushed by a red burn deck, who got taken out by a white prismatic circle of protection deck... Fun times.

-Justin 1.5

Limiting combo can be dangerous it severely hinders deck construction.  Although we don't have many Johnnies in our playgroup, I would like to be able to sit down at the table and play against Jason's inevitable aggro deck, Mike's super spike deck, and someone playing a Johnny combo deck.  The combo player isn't always going to assemble their super crazy death machine every game.  When Johnnies win, the table usually immediately dies.  This is super awesome because everyone is allowed to reshuffle and immediately join back in.  One player doesn't have to sit and watch while someone gains incremental advantage, and is able slowly grind everyone else out.

Justin, in a specific addition to your comment about blowing people out with a combo deck, that sounds like a power level problem. I remember my first time playing with our old DnD group that forms the bulk of our current players, when I was used to playing with my friends in Fort McMurray. I won both games we played that night, downright brutally. The first game I overran everyone with pure aggro. The second game, I managed to stick a second turn Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The rest of the table had to gang up, focus on me, and keep me in check. When I was finally reduced to nothing but land, I top decked Insurrection (a card that was totally foreign to that playgroup) and rode it to immediate victory. I powered my deck down after that, and started playing different and weaker decks. I haven't truly re-powered Animar back to those levels, (the deck had infinite combos, and reliable ways to tutor them) as there isn't any reason to go to that level of excessive overkill.

Mike also has a great point about our playgroup being somewhat slow to being able to adapt to problematic cards.  My counterpoint to that, is that the best way to fight blue, is to play blue.  Some decks just don't play blue.  I cannot think of any other effective way to disrupt a blue deck which has the game plan to slowly grind out and attain small incremental advantages, than starting to increase the amount of permission that their decks contain.  You could run very specific hate cards on blue spells, but they are extremely corner case.  It's almost like if aggro ran wild, that we asked blue decks to run stuff like Flashfreeze.  I realize that I'm the one guy who insists on running Force of Will in my Animar deck, but I don't want to be forced to tell the mono-green player to run control hate cards to keep the blue permission player in check.  I really don't know an effective solution to this "problem."  Maybe we need to encourage someone to play mono-black disruption, land-destruction based permission decks, or even just encourage more Johnny players to put a reliable clock on games.

I feel somewhat bad throwing stones like this when I haven't played with you guys for months, AND I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks and won't be able to show up for a while yet.  I just can't resist though.